In 363, Prof Loui had everyone write up an article on whether JAVA should continue to be used as a CS101 language, or whether a scripting language should be. I think that Loui hates JAVA for some reason, and really wants everyone in the world to use scripting languages.
Most of the people in the class said that they thought a scripting language would be better. They argue that the simpler syntax would make actually programming easy. A few even expressed hatred for the CS101 Canvas, which I thought was actually pretty nice. A few argued for JAVA and other systems languages, and most of their arguments were very good. Generally they were much better crafted than the "I'm too lazy to type int" ones.
I took a completely different approach. I said that debating between Python and JAVA was stupid. They are both statement based languages. I think that CS101 should be taught in an expression based language, like Lisp or Scheme.
Why, you ask? One, because they are a completely different way of thinking about how computers work that can be much more effiecient (from a development standpoint). Two, they force you to use recursion and get used to it right away if you want to do anything useful. Three, it is easier to go from Lisp to JAVA than JAVA to Lisp. (My own opinion.)
CS101 used to be taught in Scheme. So it isn't such a stretch to think that it could go back. I've been finding it hard to explain what it is about Lisp that makes it so different. But if you have some opinions, or can phrase this better than I can, leave a comment. I'm curious what you guys think.
Posted by Nathan at 20.04.04 00:21I can't imagine CS101 returning to Scheme nor do I think it should. I have a number of reasons for this opinion. Here are a few of them.
First, I don't think it is the scope of CS101 to teach a "completely different way of thinking about how computers work." The assumption in 101, at least when I was involved with the course, was that the students had no prior knowledge of programming. I gather that this is less and less the case, but it is still a worthwhile goal to make the CS curriculum open to those who have never programmed before without sending them to remedial classes first. So its hard for a "different way" of programming to have much of an impact when the students don't know the standard way.
My second objection is Lisp itself. You argue that "it is easier to go from Lisp to JAVA than JAVA to Lisp." I happen to disagree with that statement, but I won't address it directly. I will argue, however, that for many people Lisp is very difficult to learn. I recall the great difficulty that many students in CS101 had with recursion, and I just can't see them succeeding with a language that relies quite heavily on recursion.
You also argue that Lisp "can be much more effiecient [sic] (from a development standpoint)." Are you saying that you can develop applications faster in Lisp, because that's certainly not true. Well, you can do some things faster in Lisp, but developing a useful application (i.e., one that takes input from the user, does something with that input, then displays the results to the user) is not one of them. Kids taking their first programming class want to create things that they think of as programs. That's why the apparently oft-derided CS101 Canvas exists.
My final point is an important one. One of the main goals of CS101, in my opinion, is to ensure that all the students have a language of common reference. That way the important CS concepts can be taught without concern for the underlying language. Teaching things like algorithms and data structures, while conceivably possible in a language like Scheme, seems ridiculously difficult. For the most part, our core concepts are designed to fit into a world with C-style syntax and our introductory courses need to ensure that all the students are fluent in such a language.
Okay, that's enough for now. I still have a couple of points, but I should probably get some work done this morning.
Posted by: david at 20.04.04 10:23We used to teach Scheme and it's an easy language to teach if you want to do basic, computational things.
We moved to Java *in part* because it's so much easier in Java to do visual things, and seeing a computation is often more rewarding than just seeing a printout of something. The basic ideas you want to teach with Scheme, such as recursion, are just as easily taught using Java.
Scripting languages -- some are a mess (like Perl and gawk) and others are ok (python), but an issue is how do you scale? David's comment of starting down the path of one language rings true with me, and when we get to doing big stuff, perl/gawk just don't scale. The complexity of managing a large perl/gawk program is frightening.
Posted by: rkc at 20.04.04 10:50I'm not even sure that I agree with what I wrote here. I wrote it just to come at the subject from a different angle. I'm actually a pretty big Java fan. I'd hate, most of all, to see CS101 go to a scripting language like perl or gawk or even python.
Posted by: Nathan at 20.04.04 11:13The fact that most of the class agreed that CS101 should be taught using a scripting language is mildly frightening. Hopefully they are just recognizing that this attitude will get them a better grade from Ron Loui and not because they have been brainwashed by being in class with him for a semester.
Posted by: Chris Hill Festival at 20.04.04 13:01I'm in total agreement with Ron on the scripting language issue. I spent so much time attacking Lisp and Scheme that I never got around to mentioning that a scripting languages doesn't make much sense either. The scaling issue really is important here. The language taught in 101 needs to be easy enough to teach to beginners and scalable enough to support more advanced concepts in future classes.
Also, in response to Chris's comment, I too am hoping that the majority of the class doesn't really think a scripting language would be a better choice than Java for CS101. Certainly, arguing in favor of gawk is the shortest path to Dr. Loui's heart, so perhaps that explains things. Its also possible that the web scripting class was a self-selecting sample: the students who are most disposed to look on scripting languages in a positive light are those who sign up for a class on scripting languages.
Posted by: david at 20.04.04 13:40Another issue is that one of the major complaints by students in the department is that they don't learn enough languages (or learn them well enough) useful in the workforce, such as C++ and SQL. By taking away Java, we would be moving even further away from the working-world languages (unless you happen to work for Ron Loui).
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It is no more difficult to describe complex algorithms in Scheme or Lisp than it is in Java or C. If you have more difficulty coding the algorithms it's because you never really learned the language. I would admit that far more people have difficulty learning Scheme or Lisp because it seems so daunting at first glance, but once you get into it is no more or less difficult then Java to compute your answer in.
With regards to programming "RESULTS" with a language having it display it graphically has no bearing on this. It's nice and pretty but that doesn't mean it's a better result. There is nothing wrong with text, it just looks plain.
An intro course skirts between two goals. On the one hand it wants to teach people the basics of programming in the language of choice, on the other it is important to teach the theories of computation which is what makes us good programmers, not the language we write it in.
CS101 has a problem in that it is designed for both majors and nonmajors. The nonmajors could probably get by just learning a few tricks in whichever language, so that they could compute things when they want, but the theories of computation aren't quite as important to them, nor do they have the time to learn them in 101. The majors on the other hand, and maybe the minors NEED to know how to compute things from a theoretical level and from that stance it doesn't matter what language you choose, so long as the language itself does not distract you from the actual computation.
I learned to program from the ground up, I started in Commodore Basic, then to Pascal, then to C/C++ and on to java and scheme. Those are the order in which I learned them, but they are not the order from ground up. Basic taught me the basic control flow, and taught me the realms of what was capable. Pascal and C/C++ was formal learning and I learned much about what was capable with various specific libraries and continued to hone my base computational sense. By the time I hit java the only advantage it had was ease of GUI programming, and not having to deal with memory management. But the only reason the GUI programming was easy was because the libary came with the language. It wasn't actually easier to program in java, and in terms of doing computation I spent far more time wresseling with making sure graphics updated properly then actually just computing my answer. In fact most of the time I spent learning java was in learning the libraries that were necessary to do ANYTHING in the language. And there are still very basic things I never really learned. For instance getting input from stdin? Ask David Jurgen how long it took him to do that for an ACM Contest. I never took CS101 here, nor at my previous college, but I can't imagine doing it in java. As complex as C++ is, you don't have to point them at the libraries until much later. Sure they need stdio or iostream but you can teach them the very basics so they can use them in no time, and they can spend the rest of there time computing things instead of running around in circles learning gui packages.
Finally I learned Scheme, and it tranformed my concepts of computation all around and made them that much more clean. I never learned how to open stdio from there, but I didn't need to because I could just fiddle around with computation with the interpreter, without a need for using the gui or files or some other method io. When I returned to java and c++ my code was 10 times more clean and understandable.
Don't get me wrong, I love using a libarary, but unless it is effectively transparent, it is difficult to describe to someone learning. There are too many things you need to learn in java which have nothing to do with computation. It gives the programmers the feeling with there gui and whatnot that appears like they have done alot, when there actual computational code is very small. They need more practice with computation and designing. Addmittidly they also need alot more understanding on how to design large projects and libraries but that flows out of the mistakes one makes on the small scale of computation.
Anyway I'm tired of writing when this is just a comment. My personal opinion overall though is that java does not beget better programmers. In fact in a number of experiences I feel it begets poorer programmers. They don't really know how it works, and you can't teach them that in a year from ground up. But I believe you could teach them more that would apply to more if you gave them a language that was more bare bones and less verbose.
I love the language Ruby, but where it does wonders for an experienced programmer, it is complex and the beauty of it is only useful and apparent if you have programmed before. The same probably applies to python. Java also suffers from being too complex but is additionally far far too verbose making it complex AND inefficient to code in. Trading incredibly verbose code for easy garbage collection is not in anyway an advantage in my opinion. Scheme is small but beautiful and I think it would be perfect. I'm not advocating going out and writing your applications in it, I'm advocating it as a first language that will make things better in the long run.
How often do any of you actually program GUI's anyway? I haven't found it to be of any practical application except in cute little useless demos that don't do anything. If you want something fancier then text then teach them webprogramming, it's still just text generation, but it looks a little prettier then commandline.
Posted by: Charles C at 21.04.04 21:59Wow, Charlie. That might be the best comment I've ever gotten.
Posted by: Nathan at 21.04.04 23:01As most of us are computer science majors (or professors, or professionals), we often forget how it was to be a novice. Memory management (to quote a discussion from another site), is easier for us, and it's important to write clean and efficient code.
But try and think back to before you knew how to program, be that before you started college or before you taught yourself to program when you were 10. What kinds of things are important for you to learn? Variables, loops, the dreaded recursion, the list goes on and on. But there's something else that's important to you also: what does learning all this foreign, hairy stuff do for you? Chances are your only experience with computers thus far is with graphical programs, what good is learning how to execute a loop 10 times if that loop doesn't do something useful, like say make a building fall down (to quote a CS101 lab from back in the day)?
CS101 is, by definition, an introductory class, so there must be a balance between not only teaching important fundamentals, but also getting people excited about computer science. So having some sort of graphical interface is probably the most important part of the class. It's hard to get excited about a perl script that parses strings on the UNIX command line (or about GAWK in any shape or fashion), because this isn't how 99% of people interact with their computer.
The other thing that 101 serves to do is provide a language base for use in other classes. The next logical step (programming-wise) for most students after 101-102 is 241, a class in algorithms and data structures. Any language can run algorithms, as you point out, but how well does Scheme work with data structures? Or how about 342, which is basically Object Oriented Design?
It's one thing to argue between Java and C++ for 101, as there are strengths and weaknesses for both, but to argue in favor of Scheme is just ludicrous. All the cadddr's in the world won't help you implement a Hashtable or teach you the Factory Method pattern, and a student that puts Scheme on their resume with no OO programming experience will get exactly zero jobs.
Posted by: Chris Hill Festival at 21.04.04 23:51I'll agree that the Scheme argument was a little silly. I really was just going for something different. Everyone was either saying "Scripting rules" or "Java rules", and with Loui, it is more fun to be different.
I guess I'm wondering if anyone out there actually likes Gawk, besides Loui. I've been forced to use it so much that I'm quasi good at it, but the more I use it, the more I hate it. It is on my resume, but that is almost embarrassing.
I have a friend who is taking CS101, or 132 or whatever they have renamed it to next semester with Gill. I had Gill for 342 and thought that he was pretty good. I guess it'll be interesting to hear what she says about it. She has never programmed before, so I'll be curious about what she thinks. Maybe this summer I can show her a little scripting, and then she can tell me what SHE thinks.
I think that the graphical nature of CS101 is important. Sure, recurious by itself is fun. But recursion when you get to make a pretty Persian rug is much better. My CS101-102 programs were probably the most fun that I've had programming because you really do a whole lot with very little.
I just with that everyone could have Prof. Cytron teach it.
Posted by: Nathan at 22.04.04 00:04Scheme does just fine with complex datastructures, though implementing a linklist in scheme is kinda silly. MIT teaches all of there intro courses in Scheme and only moves onto other languages when they need to move into other realms where it doesn't apply. I'm not saying you should go all the way through with scheme, I'm saying you should start with it. Add a languages course that is taken concurrently with 241. You can teach how OO actually works in scheme as well, but without needing it from the onset.
Memory management isn't a problem in scheme either, in fact most implementations still have superior garbage collection to java since LISP/Scheme is where java got it's garbage collection from in the first place.
It's also not really that difficult to write gui's in scheme if you have a library. Java just doesn't let you get away with anything without using the libaries and understanding OO. Learning OO is very important, but I think it distracts from the basics of computation. Abstraction is a wonderful tool, if you a) know how to use it and b) know when to use it or why to use it. I see alot of people hit 342 who know all about objects, or at least they know how to use them. But they have never learned design. They haven't learned to explore. The point of 342 is to teach design, but something previous to that should have exposed them to it.
This is just my view of what I have observed, I haven't taken 101 here so I can't say how it is taught. I am sure that design is taught, but I think it gets lost in too many other concepts. I think the foundation class should teach you how to think like a computer scientist, show you how you can apply programs as a tool to another problem. Fiddling around so much with applets and gui's just seems like alot of fluff. It's important, and it should/would be learned, but it's distracting in a first year class.
If you want the spark of something that feels cool, let them how to make thinclients with webprogramming. Sure it's cool to have a gui, but how much time is spent teaching the framework to do that in? How much could be invested into more directed exploration, that helps them find out what is capable and apply it to any old problem.
I don't know I may be overstepping my bounds since I never took 101 or 102 with anyone here so I don't know exactly how they were covered and I am not intending to insult anyone's teaching ability or the results. I know my own experiences were spread out for a while so that exploring had time to mature on it's own instead of being crammed into 4 years. Maybe we still have lots of leftover dotcom business people floating through who just wanna make a quick buck and aren't really sparked by computation. We also certainly do have lots of people who have done very well with the curriculum as it is. It's just sometimes I don't see as much spark as I expected.
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